I've always been a bit confused by all the different types of orcs, goblins and trolls. For example, in FoTR when the nine first enter the mines of moria and find all the carnage and dead bodies left over from the dwarves being attacked, Legolas pulls out a random arrow from a body and exclaims, "Goblins!
So after all my rambling , the main question is: Is there any real difference between different breeds of orcs, goblins, and trolls besides where they were 'created' so to speak, and if there are, what are they? Any input you could give me would be most helpful! Gandalfs Beard has made posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online. Hopefully Beren or Show will be by to help clear this up, because even I get a little confused sometimes.
But initially, Orc and Goblin are interchangeable terms, they are one and the same thing. However, Goblin seems to be favoured when talking about orcs from the Misty Mountains as in The Hobbit or the original orcs in general. They look like slimy Gollum-ish elf type creatures with big eyes and cat-like pupils.
Then there are the Orcs created by Saruman; these are the Uruk-hai. They look more like Neanderthal versions of Elves. They are bigger, stronger and meaner than the other Orcs, and apparently more loyal and focussed on their missions too.
Anyway, maybe Beren or Show will have some more canonical details from the books that I've forgotten. Show has made posts and is from and is not online. Posted Friday 28th August pm. As you both pointed out, the Uruk-Hai are easy to spot.
Same goes for the cave trolls. The best of my understanding is that Goblin and Orc are simply two words for the same thing. Typically in writing they were Goblins in Hobbit and orcs in LotR.
If my memory serves me which it fails to do at times , Peter Jackson said on the Commentary for RotK that he used the same look for his Mordor Orcs as for the rest. But he knew he had to make them more menacing, so he suited them up in bigger and better armour. So while the Mordor orcs are the same creepy fugly characters as those housed in Isengard, the Mordor orcs get better gear. Beren has made posts and is from and is not online. Posted Saturday 29th August am.
I can see how Legolas' comments can get confusing they're not meant to bear much meaning in the movie, anyways. But, as GB and Show have said: the basic thing you must remember is that goblins are orcs and orcs are goblins. They are the same creature, but people tend to refer to the Misty Mountain "orcs" as goblins and anything else as orcs. The very first orcs that Saruman made like the one that came to him and said, "What news from Mordor, my lord? What does the Eye command?
But then Saruman was able to breed a stronger and better "version" that was able to travel in sunlight, accomplish missions better, and defeat foes better. These were the Uruk-Hai.
Sauron's orcs are all pretty much the same. The ones that capture Frodo are the most wimpy, since they just sit in the tower all the time. But the ones at the battle for Pelennor fields were essentially the same thing. All orcs, as Saruman explains in TT, were elves once. In the ancient days, Morgoth captured elves, tortured them, subjected them to lifelong hard labor, and mutilated them by this process. He then forced them to breed, and thus bred his Orc race.
They all eventually through Morgoth messing with the genetics, probably lost all their elfishness, and became absolute servants of Morgoth. When Morgoth was destroyed, all the remaining orcs hid in the depths of the mountain caves, and when Sauron arose, he used these orcs. So, although orcs really aren't elves, their ancestors from thousands of years ago were. It's pretty sick.
I hope that clears things up. If you want to know about trolls too, let us know. Posted Sunday 30th August am. Thanks so much for all three of your guys' comments! They were extremely helpful, especially the whole bit about goblins essentially being orcs.
Eldorion has made posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online. Posted Saturday 26th September am. The phrase goblin is used in LOTR interchangeably with orc. It is not exclusively used to refer to Misty Mountain orcs. The movies confuse the concept of orcs somewhat. In them there are insectoid like "goblins", regular "orcs", and larger and stronger "Uruk-hai".
The situation in the book is somewhat different. Within Orcs there are sub-types. There are Uruks or Uruk-hai, "orc-folk" , the Black Orcs of Mordor, who are bigger and stronger than other orcs. This technique was used by Morgoth in the First Age and rediscovered by Saruman, but there is no evidence that Sauron ever used it. I've been a bit confused by Saurman's half-orcs referring to themselves as "Uruk-hai" when they clearly have human blood in them.
My conclusion is that they are part Uruk and just didn't mention the half-orc part for some reason. The origin of orcs is a complicated matter that J. Tolkien never fully resolved. The spawning pits shown to us by Mr. Jackson were entirely a creation of the films.
I have no idea where Jackson came up with that. Of course, he couldn't show how they really reproduced, so I guess the gory part in him which is pretty much dominant took over and he thought this up. Not true at all, and not visually appealing at all, lol. I think that Jackson may have a thing for monsters including spawning monsters , and I think it's a bit excessive at times.
Remember the Uruk-Hai head with it's tongue sticking out on the spike next to Fangorn? Pure Peter Jackson. Ah yes, that fine specimen of Orchood. The so-called Gothmog of ROTK was worse for me though, the masses of diseased flesh were a bit creepy to me.
On the other hand, I thought Gollum was done well and not all over-the-top freaky monsterish. Jackson wanted a large mound of diseased flesh on his face, and they did it for him. But when Jackson saw it, it wasn't near enough for him, so he just kept on piling on the stuff until it was 3 times as big as it originally was Gollum was not only an artistic achievement, he was a scientific achievement. He was huge and ushered in a whole new age of CG.
But yeah, that whole gooey mud pit, birth process thing was very un-canonical and totally cool. And I do like PJ's depictions of the various sub-species of Orcs, even if he does confuse the issue a bit for people.
But it's not all Jackson's fault; even many Tolkien readers get confused as to the distinctions, not being versed on the etymology of the words he uses. I vaguely remember that Beren. Didn't they do the same thing with the Witch-king's flail until the rather larger stunt actor could barely pick it up, much less swing it?
That would've been much funnier to me if he was making one of his horror comedies rather than LOTR. Holy Cow, that flail was ridiculously huge. But, being me, I thought it awesomely captured the Epicness of the whole battle and the Power of the Witch-king. So Heavy Metal. So what are your thoughts about these? I'm specifically talking about both folklore and modern media.
Mods, if this is the incorrect forum, I apologize and ask for it to be moved to the correct one, but I feel like it should go into geek media since this is more about their popular depictions. Can I have an Autograph! Kanluwen wrote: Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".
When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked. They're all more or less iterations of the rather varied and diverse European folklore surrounding fairies also known in hoitytoity literary circles as "fairy lore".
Modern fantasy has mostly bastardized the diversity and complexity of this mythology, while reducing the word "fairy" to flowery cuteness when in the actual folklore fairies are more often than not insanely metal and you do not want to feth with them. Elves are also part of this lore background. A not so brief brief rundown; Spoiler :. Some places associated Elves though a ambivalent to humanity, and might help or screw you over depending on their demeanor and mood at the time.
Goblins evolved from the Germanic Kobold. The Gnome is a later Renaissance creation based on the same mythology. Similarly related creatures are hobgoblins, boggarts, the Scottish brownies, and the much later gremlin. Kobolds were generally not particularly harmful unless you pissed them off. The House Elves of Harry Potter are derived from the legends of Kobolds as house hold spirits who help you out in exchange for leftovers.
Goblins by extension abandoned most of the positive aspects of the kobold, leaving only the temperamental personality and greed. Dwarves are Nordic, and you can read much about their history in the Poetic and Prose Edda.
These two sources give them different backgrounds, depicting them either as children of Brimir a giant or as maggots that emerged from the rotting flesh of of Ymir who might be the same giant Note that dwarves in Nordic legend were not stout shorties, but were a variation of elf, namely black elves. The Svartalfar were a particular tribe of "black elf" mentioned in the Prose Edda. Ogres are monsters derived from much older legends about Orcus, a monster of unclear origin some thing he's a pre-Roman monster, some think he's Germanic, others think he was originally Greek.
Orcus was a monster who ate human flesh and Beowulf's Grendel is a related monster. The word "ogre" itself is pretty new being coined by some author I can't remember in the 18th century or something but it's all basically a long series of folk lore about grotesque man eating monsters that like living in caves.
Orcs ultimately derive from this same conception but orcs are almost completely a modern invention whose existence is really owed to Tolkien. Tolkien initially derived Orcs directly from Grendal, you may notice that in LotR that Orcs like eating "man flesh". Trolls these days are often conflated a lot with ogres but the original trolls are of Nordic origin and Fond on caves, grotesque may or may not like human flesh.
Trolls make a brief appearance in the Prose Edda, where they're not really described that much outside of not liking sunlight and that they were descended from the Jotun more giants. Elves are very The word itself is Germanic, but the idea seems to have originated further north. In contrast to the dwarves who were black elves, the elves were "white beings. Their depiction is more common in the Icelandic Sagas where they're depiction is as otherworldly and supernatural spirits.
It's not clear how Elves and Fairies are related. Some people think the later came first and inspired the former, some thing its the other way around. Most of the time the living dead want blood and these myths formed the basis for the modern vampire myth and the modern werewolf is very closely related in terms of how it came about.
Look of draugr, revenant, ghouls, and wrights as related concepts. The whole thing with dragons is also very modern really. Old timey Europeans didn't classify monsters in that way, and the way we think of drakes, wyverns, dragons etc etc is mostly derived from Dungeons and Dragons and other works of modern fantasy.
I hope this adorable bunny makes up for my being a jerk. Bohemond I was like a real life Stannis Baratheon, except he didn't set people on fire As far as I know. MechaEmperor wrote: This is in contrast to some other mythological creatures and races, such as Elves universally magical, long ears, long lived and graceful, even santa's elves , Dwarves stout, strong, beards, tinker a lot and have a strong tradition , Vampires bloodsucking undead with magical powers , Zombies just plain undead and mindless , Dragons powerful reptilians with breath weapons and often magical and so forth.
Lord of Hats pretty much covers it, the same trope of monsters with names varying by region appear over and over, getting remixed down though time via oral retelling, so you get the large stompy thing Orges, Trolls, Fomor , sneaky shifty things goblins, kobolds, fairys , graveyard lurkers vamps, ghouls, zombies , things from the depths merfolk,Umibozu , kraken , their 'powers' are loosely defined and usually are whatever the story needs, I think modern RPG 's have taken old words and assigned a set of skills to them so whilst an RPG Liche is a fairly particular being, half a dozen or more folklore monsters could be considered the same thing.
Basically the Roman devil and hell. Ironically, this actually meant that he survived for longer than the more wellknown gods, as it took longer for christianity to reach those parts, and managed to be incorporated into rural medieval traditions.
Orc is also a character from William Blake's mythology, who represents rebellion. He might have been inspired by the aforemention Roman hell.
Tolkien also wrote this in an letter - Orc I derived from Anglo-Saxon, a word meaning demon, usually supposed to be derived from the Latin Orcus—Hell. But I doubt this, though the matter is too involved to set out here.
Peace through power! Grumble Grumble. Trolls being an a thing onto themselves, or possibly related to giants. Yeah, In terms of size, trolls tend to be a between ogres and orcs in most works of fiction. Sometimes they can be giant size though. In most cases they have incredible regenerative abilities. Not sure if that's how they were in myth though.
I think its a DnD thing. The Dwarf origin genuinely took me by surprise, but then again they're the only ones I never really looked into.
I guess Skyrim is technically the closest "correct" depiction in modern media? Attendance vs. Latest Comparisons Dedication vs. Pall vs. Moho vs. Primarily vs. Breastplate vs. Stearin vs. Organogram vs. Tubercule vs. Glyptal vs. Faucet vs. Com vs. Destroyable vs. Aboriginal vs. Coelomate vs. Ocean vs. Judge vs. Trending Comparisons. Mandate vs. Skinwalker vs. Ivermectin vs. Socialism vs. Man vs. Supersonic vs. Gazelle vs.
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